1. Is there any particular significance that the female character in both stories is referred to as "the girl" ? Why or why not?
2. What do you make of the contrast of settings in these stories -- the mundane trailer park in New Hampshire in Banks's story vs. the railroad station at the crossroads of the Ebro valley and dry hills in Barcelona? Is there any necessity that the stories be set in these specific locales? Why or why not?
3. Explain the reason the man in Banks's story wants the girl to keep the baby. What does this say about his value system?
4. Explain the reason the girl in Banks's story wants to abort the baby. What does this reveal about her values and maturity or lack thereof?
5. Why does Hemingway's male character want the girl to have the abortion?
6. Why does the girl agree to have the abortion despite her knowledge that having the abortion will change their relationship forever?
7. Interpret the final line of Hemingway's story.
8.Explain the relevance of fishing to Banks's story.
9. How does Banks use color in his story? Provide examples.
10. Does the color green have any particular significance given its use in the pale green and scarlet plug with six double hooks, the green swimsuit of the girl, the green water, and green boat? Explain.
11. What questions of your own do you have about this story?
12. How do these stories exemplify the course theme of enslavement?
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Neither the man nor the woman in the Banks story explicitly rationalize their feeling on an abortion, so I was surprised that you asked #3 and #4. But if I'm being invited to conjecture, I accept the invitation! The man says "no sense fishing when the fish ain't feeding. The whole point is catching fish, right?" This line explains the man's views on abortion if you take "fishing" to mean "having sex" and "catching a fish" to mean "making a baby." Sex isn't just fun--the point of sex, biologically speaking, is to make a baby! Interpreted this way, it makes the girl's response particularly interesting. She says, "I don't like fishing anyhow... But I guess it's relaxing. Even if you don't catch anything." So should we then conclude that the girl barely likes sex, only engaging in it to relax but certainly not to make babies?
ReplyDeleteThe plug also interested me, with its six double hooks and pale green and scarlet coloring. My initial impulse was to interpret it as some sort of abortion-tool analogy, especially when the man takes it out of the tackle box and shows it to the girl, as if showing her what she can expect from the procedure, or perhaps to dissuade her. But he throws it into the water again and again, and the fish just aren't biting. If we're to take "fishing" to mean "love-making" perhaps we could think of the plug as a phallic symbol? Representing the man's phallus, specifically? It's red and green--does that mean it has the double-powers of destruction and renewal? But as many times as he casts his line, the fish just won't accept his invitation. His efforts are fruitless!
I was interested in the penultimate paragraph of the Banks story. The man takes them around the island, where the boat disappears for a moment from the view of "the trailpark and the people who live there." The couple crosses into a liminal (borderland) space that is separate and invisible to the community to which they customarily belong. Generally, in the comic order, lovers cross into a liminal space to escape the restrictions of society--the "Law of the Father." Usually the couple will experience tons of comic complications in the liminal space (think "A Midsummer Night's Dream" or "Twelfth Night" or "As You Like It" or even that newer movie "Couples Retreat" with Vince Vaughn), and generally get married or experience some kind of FERTILE BLOSSOMING or COMIC RENEWAL. But in the Banks story they cross behind the island, out of view for only a few minutes--not nearly long enough for anything INTERESTING to happen, right??--and that's it. They come back. No renewal. No juicy lovemaking while they're out of sight. Just... blah.
Thanks for taking some risks, Chris. I appreciate that; in fact, that's what this blog is all about.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to know two things at some point, from you or others, regarding your post and the story at large: 1. What questions would you post instead of 3 and 4?; and 2.Do you see the girl having no motive for getting the abortion, and the young man as having no reason for hating the fact she is getting one?
In "Hills," Jig is referred to as a girl because she seems to be led around by her American paramour. She has nothing to say and is really influenced by him. I haven't figured out why in "Green Rowboat" she is referred to as girl -- it doesn't make sense, especially for 1981.
ReplyDeleteThe settings are incongruous to me. In "Hills," they clearly are a metaphor for the situation -- the green, fertile terrain on one side and the barren fields on the other. The trailer park is another mystery to me -- does everything have to have meaning? I think there might be some socioeconomic meaning here -- they can't afford a baby, so an abortion is just a natural consequence.
I think the man wants to keep the baby because he loves the "girl"; conversely, I think she doesn't want the baby because having an interracial baby goes against the ideals with which she was raised.
The Hemingway man wants an abortion because he's traveling and drinking -- a carefree hedonistic life -- a typical Hemingway character -- and he doesn't want the inconvenience of a child. It also speaks to the relationship -- is the girl simply a travel companion, an object?
I'll answer the rest in another email -- whenever I go back, I lose what I typed in.
Robin
Good! Deep meaning is not necessary for everything or even for most things. Socio-economics is definitely a factor; it's vastly different to discuss a couple in a trailer park vs. a couple travelling the world.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of objectification, is the man in Banks's story an object???
My questions are not directed to one person; they are open to all; I'm just enjoying this. I won't say anymore tonight. I'll just watch and be quiet until tomorrow. Write, write, write.
ReplyDeleteThe fishing relevance is a big one here -- for one thing, the man is "fishing" for something from the girl -- love, commitment -- and then he comes up empty-handed, just like his day of fishing. It was a waste of time -- just like trying to talk to the girl about keeping the baby. There are some sexual connotations to that as well, but I think the bulk of it lies in his seeking a relationship with her.
ReplyDeleteSeveral of us have been discussing the meaning of "green" and what "dark green rowboat" could mean, but I've not come up with anything for that, without cheating.
Also in the story on page 80- there is some signficance to the history of the lake -- the civilations that were there before -- all had faced significant obstacles -- prejudice, being overtaken by white man, and now this man is having the life of his child and his dreams of a family taken from him and he has no choice.
The last line in Hemingway -- in my mind, she will have the abortion and she is fine because he is fine -- she is fine because he has made the decision and she will be happy pleasing him and being with him.
Both of these stories exemplify enslavement -- the man is enslaved because of his race -- he is hearing from the girl that he isn't good enough to start a family with - have a baby with -- and he has no power over the girl's decision. She is ....ahh, a light bulb moment -- green means truth and/or fertility. That just came to me.
The girl in "Hills" is enslaved because she needs the man and feels that she must do what he wants -- she probably likes the lifestyle and he takes care of her. She is dependent and that is like being enslaved -- being kept down. He has "chosen" that she will not be a mother right now.
I think the women in the stories are called 'girl' and not by their names because of how their identities and feelings are unimportant to the others. Neither 'girl' is fully understood in the relationship. I think the girl in "hills" is conflicted in the idea of the abortion even though her male counterpart wants the abortion tin order to preserve the life style that they are living at the moment. The 'girl' in "Dark Green Rowboat" wants an abortion because of the societial consequences that she faces having a biracial child among the socioeconomic reasons of being unable to support the child.
ReplyDeletethe setting of "hills" is congruent to the conflict that the girl faces. On one hand you have the fertile green landscapes and hills and the other side you have the barren land of dispair: the girl's conflicting decision in her mind.
I think the setting of Banks' story is reminiscent of not only his childhood but that of the situation that the characters are in.
The last line of Hemingway's story is interesting. The reader ultimately sees the girl give in to her male counterpart. She will be fine now because he is fine with her giving up the child. She is dependant on him for the life style that they have been acoustomed to. If the child was to be born, the entire world would no longer be open to them.
Hey Chris, not to be too graphic. I hope you're sitting down ... the "plug" is a reference to: oh Michelle, you tell him.
ReplyDeleteRobin
I know this is resorting to dependence on a cliche, but I always thought Hemingway's title has to do with the proverbial "elephant in the room", the girl's unwanted pregnancy. Aside from the reference to the landscape.
ReplyDeleteLIke it was mentioned in one of the above blogs, I think the use of girl is important in the characterization of both pregnant females in the stories. Hemingway's "girl" is argumentative and strikes me as almost petulant - she would rather drink then deal with the situation at hand. It happens.
Banks' "girl' also seems intentional, especially when he refers to the male in the story as man. The girl loves to tan and read fashion magazines. She still lives with her mother, and yearns for her mother's approval and guidance in decisions that should really rely on her partner's input and her own desires.
I love Hemingway's last line in "Hills". The man who demands the abortion views pregnancy as a disease, an inconvenience to be medicated by disposal immediately. The last line is the female's rebuttal to his beliefs, and protest against what is being forced upon her. She feels fine, because nothing is wrong with her - physically, or mentally.
I appreciate this collection included two stories dealing directly with abortion, and portray two very different male perspectives on this conflicted topic. We often see it from the female side - as we do in both of these stories, but the male viewpoint is a rarer one.
oh Robin.... do you really think that the blog is the proper place to describe that??? MAybe we can tell him during the staff meeting and make all the boys blush!
ReplyDelete"Girl" is particularly diminutive when considered in light of the abortion issue. Just like Kincaid's girl, all three women are choosing not to become (or being taught how to avoid becoming) mothers. They are cast not in the light of women, grown and capable, but in the role of youth in need of guidance. A girl is a child still, or at the very least a young woman. How could she then be a mother, too?
ReplyDeleteIn both stories, "girl" is clearly contrasted with "woman." In "Black Man and White Woman in a Dark Green Rowboat," the title establishes the character as a woman, with the age and maturity that label implies. The narrator then retreats, "The young woman was a girl, actually, twenty or maybe twenty-one." The narrator clarifies his earlier description, removing her status as adult. Yet her partner is forever "the man." The man is even elevated to "sheik," which highlights how the girl sees him as exotic or other while giving him the role of a prince or other leader of men. This description reflects the man's final line, "you mean, you have to go back." The girl starts by saying "we have to go back," but from the man's point-of-view, only she will. She can go back to the innocence and child-like state of girl, going from "white woman" to "young woman" to "girl" who lives with her mother. The man of the story remains, always, a man or a black man. He does not get to regress. The "girl" of "Hills Like White Elephants" is contrasted with the "woman" who is the stations' waitress. She never strays from being called a "girl," while the "American" is a "man." The constant interruption of the "woman" emphasizes that the "girl" does not qualify for the name, at least from the perspective of the narrator.
ReplyDeleteBoth girls are dependent. The girl of "Black Man and White Woman" has her mother to lean on. She doesn't row the boat, and cannot reach the island by herself. She limits herself to a passive activity: tanning. When the girl points out her decision to have the abortion, her statement starts with her in control. She says definitively, "I'm going to do it. This afternoon." From there, she reveals slight dependence when she says "Mother's coming with me." She phrases it as though her mother is not necessary, but is an addition to the process. However, the final line reveals that the mother is part of the process directly, at least for this particular girl. The girl ends with "She called and set it up this morning." The girl has not set up the appointment for herself. Instead, she has informed her mother, who did the work for her. In "Hills Like White Elephants," the girl is a little more independent. She has some control, though it is very limited. She, too, demonstrates her dependence on others. She is traveling abroad, yet she cannot speak the local language. The man orders the drinks, and can understand the waitress's warning about the train's arrival time. The girl must rely on him for her ability to travel. She seeks his approval; she wants him to "love it" when she says "bright" things like the hills are "like white elephants." The man takes a position of authority when it comes to knowledge of the abortion. Although he claims to support her either way, he points out the simplicity of the operation, his supposed knowledge that she wouldn't mind, and that he knows people who have done it. He emphasizes that he has knowledge that she lacks, and leans towards the abortion option. Neither "girl" is described as a capable woman, and neither is self-sufficient. They will not have children dependent on them, but will be reliant on their "man" or "mother." Both are limited to roles of dependence, and are kept in a child-like state where "girl" seems like an appropriate name. Are they dependent by choice or by necessity?
Both the female characters in the stories are referred to as “girls” simply because they are very young and immature. The girl in Hills like White Elephants seems like a lost little girl seeking approval and reassurance from her lover. Her aspect bespeaks emotional dependence on the man who seems to be the decision maker for the most part. He clearly discerns her mere “girl” state of mind in need of his guidance to which he is instinctively eager to oblige. He could be in favor of an abortion in her best interest as well apart from his own. She says she doesn’t care about herself which means she wants to keep her baby, and also reveals a vulnerable “girl”, sweet yet a danger to herself. She believes herself in love and she’s ready to comply with her lover’s decision for that reason.
ReplyDeleteThe man in Hemingway’s story is for abortion maybe because he sees it as an impediment to his lifestyle or maybe he’s not ready to be a father and won’t take responsibility for his actions. He may not be sincere, but he’s frank. He’s selfish, it’s still better than being a hypocrite. He’s manipulative to a certain extent, but the girl is fickle.
The girl in Banks story seems to be just going through the motions without feeling much. In contrast to the somewhat endearing emotional girl in Hills like White Elephants, the girl in Banks’ story is of a rather nonchalant disposition that’s almost irksome especially considering the predicament she’s in. She’s very much a “girl”, misdirected somehow, yet capable of making her own decision. Her reasons to abort the baby could be many but it looks like her mother is a big influence on her decision. A girl involved with a man her father would’ve disapproved of. She comes across a tad inconsiderate towards her man. Has she internalized some of her father’s treatment/perception of the “other”? The man wants to keep the baby while she doesn’t. She doesn’t want to commit? Love is a relative term. Is it even love or just some sort of attachment and dependency in both these stories?
Setting: The railroad station at the crossroads of Ebro valley and dry hills of Barcelona symbolizes the girl’s state of mind. She wants the baby but knows her lover is not keen, and now she’s faced with a difficult choice. She’s at the crossroads and this decision will forever alter her life’s course. Also the train is coming. Will she move on with her current lifestyle or will she tarry a while to think things through. Then again, she loves this man she believes. What would happen if she decided to keep the baby? Would she lose him? Is she ready to forego a part of herself to keep him? Either way it is a hopeless situation for her because she’s not ready for either. She’s still a “girl” who will mature into a woman someday. She goes for the abortion even though she feels it’d change their relationship forever because she’s aware their relationship is about to change in any case, so why not let his wishes be the reason for the same. She finds consolation in the fact that she put his wants before her own unsure wants.
Michelle, Robin: I'm "hooked" onto your idea that something "fishy" is going on with this plug! But let's "scale" things up a notch and "cast our lines" again! Banks' choice of the word "plug" as a signifier for the object MEANS something. He could have called it a "lure." I don't know much about "fishing," but I think in this context the words would be interchangeable. Lets employ the critical "tools" Freud bestowed upon us! Take plug to mean "a thing which stoppers up a hole." If the plug is in place, no baby is going to come out, and no phallus is going to go in. So the plug serves many roles in the story. It's a phallus (think of the man casting it fruitlessly over and over), it's a lure (think of the woman's vagina, which is alternatively lush (green) and barren (red), as well as the whole temptation angle), and it's a plug (in the sense of stopper or blocker). In all of its manifestations, it's DANGEROUS--to the fish and to anyone who handles it carelessly. It's an abortion swimming through the waters, it's a fruitless romance, it's a temptation in blood-red and lush-grass-green, it's a risky idea in every sense of the words... think of all the possibilities and START YOUR BLUSHING.
ReplyDeleteExcellent extension of the metaphor there, Chris.
ReplyDeleteAs other posters mentioned, the different settings in the Hemingway and Banks stories reveal a lot about the differing social classes of the two sets of characters. This difference has its primary impact on the consequences of the pregnancies, since the man in the Hemingway piece seems as if he could provide, at least financially, for a child. What I think is so fascinating about "Hills Like White Elephants," however, is the feigned ambivalence of both the man and the girl he's traveling with about the pregnancy. Both obviously have a stake in whether or not an abortion takes place, but there are all these conditions mentioned in their conversation that would make one or the other not "care" what happened.
For instance, the man claims to be "perfectly willing to go through" what I assume is Jig's pregnancy, but to me, if this were the case, he would have left the decision up to her. As it stands, Jig only cares about the happiness of the man, which says something rather sad about the state of boundaries in their relationship as well as who apparently has the larger share of power/authority. That she doesn't "feel any way," is either a falsehood or honestly feels disassociated enough from her body that she doesn't care what happens to it. What a profoundly sad and disturbing form of alienation from one's own self.
ReplyDeleteI think that's the whole point of the "man" and "girl" naming distinction here; in addition to communicating age differences, it also sets up expectations for the relationship's power dynamics. Hemingway is doing a lot with very little by providing names that carry a lot of cultural weight.
In the Banks story, I think the naming and broad characterization serve a similar function, though I disagree with the idea that the woman to girl transition on page 79 somehow minimizes her power and presence; she has authority over her own body and is certainly not alienated from it the way that her equivalent in Hemingway's "Hills" is. As regards the "'You look like an Arab. A sheik'" piece of dialogue, I don't think it ascribes a high position of authority to the young man, since he is evidently powerless. Instead, what the exchange demonstrates is the differing levels of racial sensitivity that the young white girl and her partner have.
I have more to say on the issue of tackling these issues in a mundane, working class situation, but I think I have to put my thoughts together more clearly. In short, my feeling is that Banks presents a better sense of realism in approaching social issues.
**A quick aside and complaint (skip for those who are uninterested): far too many young writers try to emulate the Hemingway-esque "telling the story with dialogue" style. As I understand their position on short story writing, it seems to be: "Exposition is so 19th century, man. Characterization is for suckers." However, anyone can transcribe a lousy dialogue, but what places Hemingway with the masters is that he can accomplish characterization and exposition within the context of the brief dialogue he presents. If there aren't clear elements of storytelling and narrative in the text, it's not minimalism, it's just very poor writing. Rant over.**
Thought I posted this earlier, apparently had comp issues. So here!
ReplyDelete10. Concerning the color green:
I felt green was important to the story because it's the middle of the color spectrum. Rainbows run ROY G. BIV, Green in the center. The parents represent opposite ends of the spectrum, Black and White, no color and all color, and the baby represents a mix of the two. I find it interesting that the repeated theme of Green is more optimistic, so to speak, than the repeated theme of "two" in HLWE. If Green represents the baby being a coming together of two opposites, then it's really not a very bad thing. But in Hemingway's piece the couple is surrounded by "two" of everything, in their own little harmonious world, and the baby will "make three" and make everything uneven and throw it all out of balance.
2. Concerning Setting:
I've always felt the railroad station was a great locale for Hemingway's story. The couple is stuck and must face a decision in which there are only two options. A train can only go two directions, forward or reverse. The man's argument is that once "the girl" has the abortion things will return to how they were, as though they were able to go back, but that's probably not the case. Really they need to, and inevitably will, move forward.
My initial musing on the trailer park is that it represents Potential Energy. Sedentary vehicles or homes-on-wheels are a little ironic, in theory. The idea of a vehicle is to move about and the concept of a home is, normally, a static place to which to return. A Pro-Life reading of the story could probably argue that, just as vehicles should move (have their potential to move realized) the baby (a potential life to be lived) should be born.
7. Concerning HLWE's final lines:
Claiming that "nothing is wrong" with her is the woman's assertion that there isn't anything unnatural about her current state, as the man seems to be implying throughout the entire story. It also serves as a clever retort to his description of the procedure earlier, "...it's all perfectly natural." Technically, in a literal sense, what he's talking about is the opposite of natural. Her final lines seem to be a response to this idea that the baby makes things unnatural and disrupts the harmonious life they presumably had been living before hand.
Chris, what are you talking about? How about toning it down a bit? Anyway, what struck me as telling in Banks' story is when the man injures himself and Banks's description of the girl is as follows: "She slid back in her seat and drew her legs up close to her and wrapped her arms around her knees." The girls goes into the fetal position and seems to fear that the man will inflict some kind of violence or possibly rape. This description ties back in with the girl's reference to "close calls" and "Depression." What is she referring to in saying close calls?
ReplyDeletetesting
ReplyDeleteActually, the term "girl" is used in all 3 stories we've read so far, yet each has unique settings. From the slavery/colonial context of the Carribean, to the more contempory American / New Enlgand setting, to foreign countries, the term "girl" is used to objectify women across social, cultural, political, economic, geographic and of course sexual borders.
ReplyDeleteExcuse the typo: contemporary.
ReplyDelete